Art Crimes: Chatting with FBI Director (Ret.) Robert K. Wittman

Over the weekend I chatted with FBI Director (Ret.) Robert K. Wittman who founded the Art Crimes Division and had a remarkable career working undercover to rescue the world’s stolen treasures. Super nice guy. We had a fun conversation, which I transcribed to share with you. In the transcription, I stayed as true to the exact wording as possible to give you a peek into his personality. My questions are in bold.

Hi, Bob! Welcome to Murder Blog. Let’s dive right in. Can you tell us a little about your background? You’ve had such an impressive career with the FBI.

Thanks, Sue. Sure. I was an FBI agent for 20 years, from 1988-2008. During that period of time, I was assigned many cases involving art theft and cultural property crime. As a result of a number of successes in various cases, I was basically the FBI’s go-to guy for those types of cases. Over the time I was there I recovered over 300 billion dollars worth of stolen art and property in 20 different countries.

Lots of undercover work, which I’ve chronicled in Priceless: How I Went Undercover to Rescue the World’s Stolen Treasures. In 2010, the book was published by Random House and became a New York Times Bestseller.

Congratulations! That’s awesome. So, how did you first start in the FBI?

Well, in 1988 — I always wanted to be in the FBI — I was watching TV shows like Miami Vice. I always thought it’d be cool to drive a cigarette boat in a white suit like those guys.

Ha! You can’t believe how many cops and agents I’ve talked with who wanted to go into the field because of that show.

I wanted to be Crocket, y’know? But I was in Philadelphia, where there weren’t a whole lot of cigarette boats. Mainly just dead bodies. Anyway, so I went into the FBI and I was assigned to the Interstate Theft Squad. Which was really truck hijacking, involving property crime.

One of the first cases I worked was a theft from the Philadelphia Museum. It’s a museum of Archeology and Anthropology, and a crystal ball was stolen, which was owned by the empress of China, Empress Z. Anyway, it was stolen and we worked the investigation over 18 months and recovered the crystal ball. It’s a major piece in their collection, beautiful piece. It’s still in their museum today.

As a result of the recovery, the FBI decided to assign me most of these types of cases. By 1992-1993, all I was doing was art theft.

Fascinating. So, you just kind of fell into this field?

Yeah, but I did know the business because my parents were in the antique business.

What a coincidence. Mine were, too.

Oh, there ya go. So, then you know, when your parents are in the antique business you learn how to make a deal in the art world. White crime is all about the art business world.

What’s the strangest case you’ve ever investigated?

Strangest case? Oh, there’s some cool stuff. One case we did involved a Peruvian artifact that was stolen from a tomb in Peru. It’s the largest piece of gold ever to be stolen from a tomb in the Americas. This gold was a piece of body armor worn by the Moche people. If you Google “Moche back flap,” you’ll see what I mean. It was a piece of body armor that covered the king’s backside. Pure gold, stolen from the tomb.

We did an UC operation, an undercover sting. Ultimately, we were able to recover that piece in Philadelphia. What’s really interesting about it is the three people who actually touched it, who worked with that piece in the underground network, were all killed. It was a strange thing. Everybody thought it had a curse on it or something. Until it came to light. Now it’s back in the museum.

Bet it was a fascinating file, though. Did you touch it?

Yeah. I actually wore it.

No way. You did?

Yeah. One of the cool things about recovering artifacts is that I got to kind of play with them a bit.

Ooh, I bet.

To prepare for this interview, I asked if some of my crime writer pals had questions. Would you mind answering a few?

Sure. Absolutely.

Cool. The first is, how was the Art Crimes Division first formed?

Up until 2005, we didn’t have an art crime division. The only two people working art theft full-time was this one guy in New York, named Jim, and myself. So, we had Jim and Bob. chuckle You gotta remember, the art industry is a 80 billion dollar industry in the U.S. We are the largest consumer country in the world when it comes to art and collectibles. About 40% of the overall market annually is here in the U.S., so that leads to the ability to have crime. Annually, the art crimes industry itself is a six billion dollar crime industry, in illicit cultural property. As a whole, the art crimes industry is about 200 billion dollars. A lot of that crime is here in the U.S., and a lot of that illicit cultural property is here, as well. When I say illicit cultural property I’m referring to theft, fraud, forgery, that type of thing as well.

The Art Crime Division started in 2005. I had done a case in Sweden where we recovered a 35 million dollar stolen Rembrandt and when I got back to the states I thought, we should start an art crime division here like they have in Italy, France, the UK, and Spain. They all have dedicated art squads. We didn’t have one at the FBI, so I put into headquarters for it and was given appropriations to start a team. Started out with eight agents. They weren’t full-time. It was collateral duty for them. Now, I think it’s up to around fifteen agents on the team who work these investigations full-time, and they’ve recovered 150 million dollars worth of art since I retired in 2008, from a dozen different countries. They’ve done a nice job.

Wow. That’s amazing. So, really, you founded the Art Crime Division.

Yes, I’m the founder.

That’s impressive.

It beat going into bank robberies. Haha.

Right? Haha. Somebody wrote in and asked if you thought the FBI would ever solve the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum Heist?

I think what will happen with that case is a tip will come in and the FBI will run on the tip and they might be able to recover a painting or two at some point, but it’ll be because the public brought the tip in. It won’t be an actual investigation where they’ve found the art themselves. Does that make sense?

Sure does. Is that because the file is so old?

Yeah. When you say, will the FBI solve it? What’ll happen is maybe a police officer in Ohio will run across a tip. They’ll find one of the paintings and call the FBI. The FBI will come in and say they recovered it. Ha!

Oh, okay, gotcha. That way too, the museum never has to pay the ten-million-dollar reward money either.

To date, none of the artwork has been recovered. It’s the largest single property crime in U.S. history.

Yes, I read that. Incredible. And it happened right in Boston.

The art is worth $500 million today.

Wow. It also seems like the museum doesn’t care who stole it. The just want their paintings back.

Yeah, that’s usually the case. Throughout my career, that was my take on it as well. I was more interested in recovering the artwork than catching the criminal who took it. Ultimately, the theft is just a blip in the history of the art.

Take for instance, we recovered one piece which was the Bill of Rights. It was North Carolina’s actual copy that was said to have a 1789 signature by George Washington, needed to be ratified. It was said that is was taken in 1865 by a union trooper as he went with General Sherman to North Carolina. They stopped in Raleigh, Pennsylvania, at the State House and one of the troopers stole it from the State House. We recovered it in 2001, which was what, 145-150 years later? It didn’t matter who took it. What was important was getting that cultural property back into the proper hands. These things outlive all of us, and the theft is just a blip in the history of the object.

(Note from Sue: Time Magazine ran an article about the history of North Carolina’s copy of the Bill of Rights, as well as the undercover sting, which can be found HERE)

Is that how it usually goes? Art takes a long time to recover?

If the piece hasn’t been recovered within the first year, yes. But it depends. I’ve had cases where I’ve recovered the item after 150 years and I’ve had cases where we’ve recovered it in a few months. Depends on the situation and the actual theft.

In the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum heist, security officers let two thieves dressed as police officers through the front door. If that heist happened today, do you think it would’ve had a much different outcome?

I don’t know how to answer that. In today’s world, there’s better training for museum security. Back then, everything was on VHS and there wasn’t much training for these individuals. It’s a different world today. We have a lot more security now.

When working undercover, how do you keep track of your cover stories? Doesn’t it get confusing?

Not really. In undercover work it’s always best to keep the cover story as close to the truth as possible so it’s easy to remember.

Didn’t you work several cases at once, though?

Yes, but I worked internationally, so I used the same cover story for all the cases.

I would think that would get confusing, keeping all the cases straight?

Not really. I used different cell phones for each case. If I got a call from Stockholm, chances are they wouldn’t know the people in Paris. See what I’m saying?

Ah, caller ID. Gotcha. Still.

I always used the same cover name and story. If you work in Boston, UC’s can’t work more than one case at a time, but since I was international it didn’t matter.

I ran a three-part interview back in 2015 with an undercover operative. He kept changing identities because he worked within one country for the most part. Still, I see a lot of similarities at the core. Undercover work in general fascinates me anyway. I can’t even imagine all the places you’ve been and the things you’ve seen. 

Eh, sometimes you get lucky.

Hahaha. You’re being modest.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Ha! Right? What prompted you to right Priceless: How I Went Undercover to Rescue the World’s Stolen Treasures?

It was my memoir. I got a great deal from Random House. And so, I was supposed to find an agent after I retired and they said, would you be interested in writing a memoir about your career? And I said, okay. So, we did a proposal, had an auction with eleven other publishing houses, and we did it. Then I came out with another book called The Devil’s Diary, published by Harper Collins. And that’s about an investigation we did in 2013 for the Holocaust Museum, which involved the chief scientist for Hitler. He’s the guy who made Hitler into Hitler. He’s the one responsible for killing the jews, the Holocaust, the arian nation racists … all the ones they pinned their atrocities on.

Wow. Tough subject matter. Sounds fascinating, though.

You consulted on the television series, White Collar, right?

Yes. Ah, no, not White Collar. What happened there was, we were out talking to producers about Priceless and one of the producers basically stole the idea. Yeah, well, he’s known for that sort of thing. He’s in trouble now for the same kind of stuff Weinstein did. You know the type.

Yeah, I do, unfortunately. So, what we saw on White Collar was basically your life?

Yeah. Only on that show they had an FBI agent who acted as a case agent for a criminal who was the undercover guy. In real life, I was both.

Gotcha. Unbelievable that they stole your life, basically. I hear it’s not that uncommon in Hollywood.

Nah. Any idea is fair game. They switch it a little bit and that’s it. Be real careful when you pitch ideas without copyrighting first, or they can steal your stuff. Especially cops. Cops love to tell stories.

Yeah, I know. My cop buddies tell me stories all the time.

Think about it. If one of those stories made it into your books and that book was adapted to film or television and made a ton of money off it, how would they feel? It’s terrible.

I would like to think I’d compensate them. I doubt I could live with myself otherwise. But you’re right. It is terrible. White Collar went on for, what, seven years or so? You could’ve made a fortune.

Ah, well, it’s not all about money.

True.

I keeping telling myself that, anyway.

Ha! I was just going to say the same thing. That’s one of the lies we tell ourselves. How’d you get involved in Serial Box? Tell us a little about what that is.

Molly Barton, one of the co-founders of the company, was in the auction for Priceless. [Note from Sue: Molly Barton worked as Global Digital Director at Penguin Random House at the time] And she called me to consult on Serial Box. Molly’s a great lady, so I said sure, I’d be happy to help out.

It’s a new form of storytelling, right?

Yes. Back in the 1800’s writers would write a monthly pamphlet. They’d write a story and publish chapters every month and people would subscribe to get the updates. Serial Box has taken this same idea. You buy a subscription to the episodic story, and you’ll receive a new episode every week. Remember that show True Crime, on HBO?

Yep. Loved it.

It’s like that, a limited series where you’ll get 7-10 episodes, and each week you’ll find out a little more of the story.

Sounds awesome. So, you consulted to ensure the story rang true?

Yes, and we had virtual meetings where the writers read me their chapters. So, it’s very, very true to life. The premise is fictional, but what happens to the female FBI agent in Egypt is real. They used a lot of my experience to write her role … if you were an agent in that country, working that case.

Very cool. You’re not one of the writers?

I was a collaborator.

Sounds awesome. The paperback goes on sale today, folks. Check it out HERE.

What’s next for you, Bob?

I’m writing my third book now. It’s has historical elements along with a current element.

Ooh, what sort of current element?

Ha! Let’s just say it’s Hamilton meets Titanic.

Nice! Are all your books true crime?

Yes, they’re all non-fiction.

Super. Well, thanks so much for spending time with me, Bob.

My pleasure, Sue! Thanks so much for helping out Molly and other writers from Serial Box. If you ever need my help for one of your books, give a call. I’d be happy to help.

I just may do that. Thank you. Well, folks, is he fascinating? I, for one, will be subscribing to Serial Box and adding Priceless to my TBR list. How ’bout you?

CORRECTION: Bob was the Senior Investigator of the Art Crimes Team (and founder), not the FBI Director. My mistake.

Robert K. Wittman joined the FBI as a Special Agent in 1988. As a result of specialized training in art, antiques, jewelry and gem identification, he served as the FBI’s investigative expert involving cultural property crime. During his 20 year FBI career he recovered more than $300 million worth of stolen art and cultural property which resulted in numerous prosecutions and convictions. As a result of his unique experience Mr. Wittman coauthored the FBI Cultural Property Investigative Manual in 2001. In 2005, he created the FBI’s rapid deployment national Art Crime Team (ACT). Mr. Wittman has represented the United States throughout the world conducting investigations and instructing international police and museums in recovery and use of high asset value security techniques. In 2010, Mr. Wittman penned his New York Times bestselling memoir “PRICELESS: How I Went Undercover to Rescue the World’s Stolen Treasures.” His second book, “THE DEVIL’S DIARY: Alfred Rosenberg and the Stolen Secrets of the Third Reich” is a worldwide best seller published in 26 languages in 30 countries. Mr. Wittman is now president of Robert Wittman Inc. the firm specializes in consulting in art matters which include expert witness testimony, investigation and collection management.